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September 29, 2011

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If the citizens of America gave any honor to the constitution they would not be voting slick talkers into office that subvert the law of the land and violate our constitution. They do not search out the history of the candidates but vote by t the way a candidate looks and a clever mantra in their speeches. Today we have a presidential candidate who believes the constitution was inspired by God and has been called "Champion of the Constitution". My prayer is that Christians will vote for tried and true integrity for the last twenty years. "Righteous Exalts A Nation"
posted by: Joanne
Thursday, September 29, 2011 at 12:07 AM
Think for a minute if you were the child or children, young and or not fully literate in your own beliefs, and were the ones left out of a public prayer led by student or teacher because of religious (or non-religious differences). This does matter to some and for a minority person, particularly a young one, being the odd man out (of prayer) could and does lead to bullying, taunting, teasing and more - by adults and other children. Why does prayer have to be led? Why does prayer have to be in public school? Why can't churches, synagogues, meditation gardens, mosques and the child's home provide for spiritual needs for teachers and children alike? Let teachers teach what they are hired to do. Let parents accept their religious (or none) responsibilities. I don't need a government or the Constitution to tell me it is okay to pray. G-d is with me everywhere I go. I do not have to be public or 'in your face' to others about it. Also, some religions do not favor proselytizing and it could cause legal problems for teachers and school systems not to mention harm to minority religious children. Been there, done that. For pity sake, protect and help our children - all of them. Don't make it harder for some just because of your personal agenda(s). I don't want my religion in public schools and I don't want yours either.
posted by: Bubbe
Thursday, September 29, 2011 at 04:45 PM
Bubbe,
I object to atheist moments of silence at school to the same degree as you object to school prayer.
Under our Constitution the States (as opposed to Federal government) are empowered to tax and fund public education, and empowered to authorize school prayer and atheist moments of silence, as long as it is non-denominational and allocated in proportion to student demographics; that way there is no unconstitutional establishment of either religion or atheism. If a State decided to outlaw both it would be an unconstitutional prohibition of the free exercise of both religion and atheism. If a State decides on one to the exclusion of the other -- not fine and well -- that would be either unconstitutional establishment of religion or unconstitutional establishment of atheism. As it stands we have unconstitutional establishment of atheism in our public schools.
posted by: Ronald R. Cherry, MD
Thursday, September 29, 2011 at 05:31 PM
Dr. Cherry, there is nothing "atheistic" about a moment of silence is that is indeed what some may choose to do (freedom of speech). As an experiment, use the explanation you just gave me on 7-10 year olds and see the reaction - if they manage to stay awake. This is not for the kids, it is being proposed by adults for adults when it is the kids we need to think once, twice and even three times about. Again, I ask you to possibly put yourself in the place of an impressionable 8 year old who hears a prayer, knows it is not his/her kind of prayer and listen to the silence of the reaction. It is deafening, especially when YOU are that 8 year old minority child amongst a sea of "believers" who use lunch time, recess and outside of school to bully the impressionable 8 year old who doesn't believe the same. Also, check the status of your teachers. It is laughable to think for a nanosecond that even a good part of them know "prayers" suitable for all (the word ecumenical doesn't apply here, especially to Jewish, Muslim, Bha'nai, Buddhist children). Who is going to foot the bill for educating these children and teacher (even principals) in all religions and none? As a tax payer for over 50 years, I don't want to. Let the kids do their religion at home, at their place of worship or privately. Don't load the teachers with more than they need and those who push for religious expression in public schools need to probably teach in religious oriented schools. Think about this too, in many places in the US religious oriented schools are not available or would be extremely costly to minority religion families. We have no choice but public schools. Christians have their own schools even in small towns. Leave something for the rest of us. BTW, when how much trouble do "atheists" give the public school system over beliefs? Practically none is close to the right answer, I can already tell you based on having had a public education myself and being made to feel "less than" because my religion was decidedly different from the majority. Common sense tells me that even a majority can be wrong: Just look at our federal .gov at present. Leave the public schools alone. It is hard enough for some of us to monitor our kids through them with all the religious hoopla that takes place in them today.
posted by: Bubbe
Thursday, September 29, 2011 at 11:33 PM
Bubbe,
Any child who has ever prayed - either alone, with his/her parents, or at a house of worship -- will perceive the difference between prayer and a moment of silence. Prayer is addressed to God and a moment of silence is not, and is thus by its very nature is atheistic -- a word which means “without God.â€
Under our 10th Amendment State legislatures would decide whether or not public schools would open with prayer or to be used at times of tragedy -- not individual teachers. State government is empowered to do this under our Constitution, but not to do it to the exclusion of atheist moments of silence. By the same token State government is empowered to open school with an atheist moment of silence, or to be used at times of tragedy -- but not to the exclusion of prayer. Under our 14th amendment we would have to treat religion and atheism equally, so either we have prayer and atheist moments of silence in proportion to demographic demand, or we have neither. There will in fact always be a demand for prayer and atheist moments of silence due to the nature of man - adult and child -- and because of the terrible tragedies which occur in life. Each State legislature can decide how to handle this as long as atheism and religion are treated equally under the 14th amendment -- and States can delegate the decision down to the community level where it really belongs. Conservative communities would likely end up with non-denominational school prayer-- but they would have to include moments of silence for -- even one atheist student -- in proportion to the demographic demand. Liberal communities would likely end up with moments of silence on the occasion of tragedies or other instances where it would seem appropriate for atheists -- but they would have to include non-denominational prayer -- even for one religious believer -- in proportion to the demographic demand. Some communities might end up with no atheist moments of silence and no prayer – but I believe that would be the exception.
I don’t buy your “hurt feelings†argument. Any atheist kid with an ounce of common sense and self-esteem will understand that he/she, as an American, possesses equal value and therefore equal rights to the kids in a religious majority. The same is true for a religious kid living in a community where most kids are atheist. Atheist children in a religious community will adjust to prayer at school as long as there are atheist moments of silence in proportion to the demographic of atheist students. The same would go for religious students who happened to end up in Berkley or Manhattan. At the end of the day the issue of school prayer and atheist moments of silence are the responsibility of the States and the local community its self -- not me -- not you -- and not the Supreme Court or any branch of Federal government. State and local government have the power under the 10th Amendment to make the call -- but the 14th Amendment requires them to do it on the basis of equal rights.
posted by: Ronald R. Cherry, MD
Friday, September 30, 2011 at 00:32 AM
Since when does a "moment of silence" denote atheism? That is not only reaching, it is foolish. How many convocations, anonymous meetings and "ecumenical" events begin with a moment of silence. Nothing atheist about it. During that quiet time a person can pray, meditate, think, zone out or look at their feet. It is a time of quiet, to calm the soul and prepare for what comes next - usually business, therapy, self-help, fun, games, etc. Dear G-d do not label silence as a negative (to you). There are larger problems in the world that need attention and a good "Moment of Silence" would help at those times .. for example, consider the people of Sderot who have 15 seconds to get inside a bomb shelter when rockets are lobbed into their vicinity or the family that has just been given bad news in a hospital waiting room. There are times silence is proper and helpful. It does not have to be filled with public prayer. Let people lead their own lives and work on the major issues.
posted by: Bubbe
Friday, September 30, 2011 at 09:28 PM
Bubbe,
Public moments of silence are not normally used in place of prayer by religious people, but they must do so when public prayer (school prayer) is unconstitutionally forbidden by government -- they are not free. Religious people may pray silently during atheist moments of silence, but they must not lead prayer aloud in public -- that is unconstitutionally forbidden. I am all for silent prayer in private or public, and I’m also happy to engage in public moments of silence -- but only if I am not restricted to these by exclusion of public prayer through the immoral and unconstitutional power of government.
Atheists prefer public moments of silence instead of prayer because they reject God. Public moments of silence are the atheist version of public prayer, so it is no skin off their back when public prayer is immorally and unconstitutionally forbidden to their religious neighbor -- we can have ours in public -- but you can not. We can’t have it both ways now can we -- just our way. Public moments of silence, since they are not directed to God, and since they are used to the exclusion of public prayer, represent an establishment of government atheism -- a similarity that the United States now shares with the Soviet Union and other Communist nations. Recall that under Communism there is no acknowledgement of any power higher than central government -- no God above demanding equal and unalienable human rights.
In the end government-required public moments of silence reflect an undeclarational superior right for atheists and an undeclarational inferior right for the religious -- enforced by unconstitutional inequality before law -- a violation of the Declaration of Independence -- and a violation of the 1st, 10th and 14th amendments. Thomas Jefferson said "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others." It follows that tyranny is obstructed action (prohibition of school prayer) according to someone else's will (unconstitutional Federal government) within limits drawn around us by the superior rights of others (atheist moments of silence).
posted by: Ronald R. Cherry, MD
Friday, September 30, 2011 at 10:26 PM
The problem here is that the Supreme Court and Federal Court decisions outlawing teacher and student-led school prayers are in violation of the 1st amendment's free exercise clause, and in violation of the 14th amendment which provides for equal protection of law -- equal protection for those who want public prayer -- equal protection for those who want public moments of silence -- and equal protection for those who want neither. Under our 10th amendment the control of these matters falls to the States or the local school boards. If it were decided on the State or local level to exclusively have non-denominational prayer, or to exclusively have moments of silence or to exclusively have an overtly atheist expression, it would violate the 14th amendment, so a rotation would be required in proportion to student demographics -- or it could be decided at the State or local level to have none of the above. All branches of Federal government -- including the Supreme Court -- must keep their hands off the unalienable right of Americans to the free exercise of public prayer. Americans are only limited in this regard by the 14th amendment which mandates equal regard to public prayer, a moment of silence, or to a purely atheist option -- in proportion to demographic demand. State or local governments get to make the call under our 10th amendment -- not Congress, the President or the Supreme Court.
posted by: Ronald R. Cherry, MD
Sunday, October 2, 2011 at 09:35 AM
Here is a thought experiment which illustrates what I have in mind regarding the paradox of school prayer.
Having surveyed the preferences of their people, a county in Missouri decided to implement a new school prayer policy; 40% of the people chose non-denominational opening prayer; 40% of the people chose an opening moment of silence; 10% of the people chose an opening pledge dedicated to teaching and learning with no mention of God; 10% of the people chose none of the above. Based on this survey, and in consideration of the Declaration of Independence and 14th amendment, school is opened on Monday and Thursday with a non-denominational opening prayer followed by the pledge of allegiance. School is opened on Tuesday and Friday with a moment of silence followed by the pledge of allegiance. School is opened on 50% of Wednesdays with the non-religious education pledge followed by the pledge of allegiance, and on the other Wednesdays with only the pledge of allegiance. Several lawsuits were filed by people of various persuasions, but the suits are settled in local or State courts because the 1st and 10th amendments forbid review by Federal Courts or the Supreme Court -- or by Congressional legislation -- or Presidential executive order.
posted by: Ronald R. Cherry, MD
Sunday, October 2, 2011 at 02:01 PM
Oddly enough, Dr. Cherry, Christians can have their prayer in public but I, as a Jew, cannot .. but I will take that moment of silence if it is available and I have some need to pray rather than be subject to prevalent Christian prayers and 'leadership' in public by teachers and others. Can't you see that that sort of thing is almost always forced on the minorities? It certainly is where my children went to public school and when I did. I/we had no choice except to sit quietly while this praying and biblical story or reading took place.
posted by: Bubbe
Monday, October 3, 2011 at 09:23 AM
Bubbe,
Students and teachers are forbidden from praying in public at our government schools -- whether Christian or Jewish -- the Supreme Court prohibited it for teachers and a Federal Court prohibited it for students.
In any event I never made a case for Christian prayer at school (or Jewish prayer, or Muslim prayer, or Buddhist prayer, etc.). I made the case for non-denominational prayer at school because that is the example set for us in the Declaration of Independence (the non-denominational Creator), and because that would be in compliance with the equal protection of law in our 14th amendment (as long as an equal regard is recognized for atheist students based on demographics), and because the 1st amendment forbids the prohibition of non-denominational school prayer. Last time I checked the Constitution is higher than the Supreme Court or the Federal Courts.
posted by: Ronald R. Cherry, MD
Tuesday, October 4, 2011 at 11:17 AM